Best line ever from Russell: "If I have forty years left of writing before I die, most of my fans haven't even been born yet." Do you KNOW the chokehold this statement has had on me?? That, combined with Lee saying how authors tend to overestimate what they can achieve in a year and underestimate what they can do in a decade....guys, that's pure gold.
Love watching these podcasts and THANK YOU for this one especially, because I can only imagine how hard it is to be open and vulnerable about business "failures," especially at your levels. It's easy to forget how no business is immune from stumbling, regardless of annual revenue. I SO appreciate the real talk here. Thank you!
So interesting on the non-fiction subscriber cost vs fiction, as I feel like usually people claim the opposite, for example Elle Griffen finding more success with growing non-fiction subscribers vs for her serial fiction.
Would love for you to elaborate more on this and do you mean for serial fiction or just for novels in general vs nonfiction newsletters or nonfiction books?
So, when you have a fiction audience, all they want is the next book, and maybe some access to you. The whole business is write a book and advertise it. There are other things you could do, but it's a very, very, very simple business.
Non-fiction comes with a whole apparatus. Look, we have a podcast, and books, and newsletters, and there is a constant need to jump and dance and twirl for cameras.
Plus, you are only as good as your last bit of advice. Yes, what you could earn is a lot lot higher since there are courses...but nobody really wants courses anymore, they want live interaction, and then in a year they'll want vodcasts, and you are always forced to change your business to get by, and there is a lot more emotional labor that comes from it.
Fiction is about soul resonance selling, and once you connect with somebody on that level, they tend to stay with you a long time. Non-fiction is about pain-point selling, and sure, they will stay with you until they have fixed their pain point, but then a lot of them move on.
I run both, and while my fiction audience needs to be 4-5x bigger than my non-fiction one to make the same money, the amount of effort I use to maintain that audience is close to zero outside of sending an email. Meanwhile, in order to maintain my non-fiction one...well, it takes a lot longer.
Also, there's more competition for ads. Ad costs for non-fiction keywords are 5-10x more expensive than fiction. There are just so many more people who know what they are doing building non-fiction businesses, especially in the self-help/business space.
There's a lot more to say, and if you want to hear it you should come to our Q and A tomorrow where Monica, Lee and I will all be on. Monica and I talk about this a lot.
This part really resonated! Love your non-fiction materials. Thanks so much for elaborating. —
“Fiction is about soul resonance selling, and once you connect with somebody on that level, they tend to stay with you a long time. Non-fiction is about pain-point selling, and sure, they will stay with you until they have fixed their pain point, but then a lot of them move on.”
New listener, great content but becomes distracting when the one guy says "like" every other word, eventually I have to turn it off. You can use audacity to remove those.
I appreciate it. I am not offended, but I am self conscious about it. I asked our editor if there was something he could do, bc I have been trying to say like less for years. The more impromptu our conversation, the more I say it.
If that's the price for your enthusiasm and an upbeat and entertaining listen, rather than some of the dry stuff (like, um, a lot of mine...) it's a bargain :-) You're awesome and you be you, never apologize. We all have stuff to work on and that one thing is minor. For context I had found 6MAE and had been listening to them end to end on a long drive haha. Too much of anything, even a good thing like 6MAE, can be a bit much! I'm about to do my first kickstarter and your book has been immensely helpful.
Thanks, Martin. There are different ways to do it but a few months apart seems to be a good rhythm. You can also watch books in your genre and see how those trilogies are spaced.
Best line ever from Russell: "If I have forty years left of writing before I die, most of my fans haven't even been born yet." Do you KNOW the chokehold this statement has had on me?? That, combined with Lee saying how authors tend to overestimate what they can achieve in a year and underestimate what they can do in a decade....guys, that's pure gold.
Love watching these podcasts and THANK YOU for this one especially, because I can only imagine how hard it is to be open and vulnerable about business "failures," especially at your levels. It's easy to forget how no business is immune from stumbling, regardless of annual revenue. I SO appreciate the real talk here. Thank you!
I know, same!!! So glad you're loving the podcast :D
I still think about that realization daily. Glad it resonated :)
So interesting on the non-fiction subscriber cost vs fiction, as I feel like usually people claim the opposite, for example Elle Griffen finding more success with growing non-fiction subscribers vs for her serial fiction.
It is considerable harder to build and maintain a nonfiction audience than a fiction one, and requires much more work.
Would love for you to elaborate more on this and do you mean for serial fiction or just for novels in general vs nonfiction newsletters or nonfiction books?
So, when you have a fiction audience, all they want is the next book, and maybe some access to you. The whole business is write a book and advertise it. There are other things you could do, but it's a very, very, very simple business.
Non-fiction comes with a whole apparatus. Look, we have a podcast, and books, and newsletters, and there is a constant need to jump and dance and twirl for cameras.
Plus, you are only as good as your last bit of advice. Yes, what you could earn is a lot lot higher since there are courses...but nobody really wants courses anymore, they want live interaction, and then in a year they'll want vodcasts, and you are always forced to change your business to get by, and there is a lot more emotional labor that comes from it.
Fiction is about soul resonance selling, and once you connect with somebody on that level, they tend to stay with you a long time. Non-fiction is about pain-point selling, and sure, they will stay with you until they have fixed their pain point, but then a lot of them move on.
I run both, and while my fiction audience needs to be 4-5x bigger than my non-fiction one to make the same money, the amount of effort I use to maintain that audience is close to zero outside of sending an email. Meanwhile, in order to maintain my non-fiction one...well, it takes a lot longer.
Also, there's more competition for ads. Ad costs for non-fiction keywords are 5-10x more expensive than fiction. There are just so many more people who know what they are doing building non-fiction businesses, especially in the self-help/business space.
There's a lot more to say, and if you want to hear it you should come to our Q and A tomorrow where Monica, Lee and I will all be on. Monica and I talk about this a lot.
Also, where is the Q&A tomorrow?
It’s tomorrow at 12pm PT/3pm ET. Here is the registration link. https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZcodumgqzktHdQraTBBJLFC5SoqIlxeOniG#/registration
Thanks! I will try to come.
This part really resonated! Love your non-fiction materials. Thanks so much for elaborating. —
“Fiction is about soul resonance selling, and once you connect with somebody on that level, they tend to stay with you a long time. Non-fiction is about pain-point selling, and sure, they will stay with you until they have fixed their pain point, but then a lot of them move on.”
— such a good way to think of this.
New listener, great content but becomes distracting when the one guy says "like" every other word, eventually I have to turn it off. You can use audacity to remove those.
I’m not doing that. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to listen.
I didn't mean to offend. I just realized I have your books and they're great. I'm glad you're also on substack. Thank you for the content!
I appreciate it. I am not offended, but I am self conscious about it. I asked our editor if there was something he could do, bc I have been trying to say like less for years. The more impromptu our conversation, the more I say it.
I like the impromtu conversations best.
Same
If that's the price for your enthusiasm and an upbeat and entertaining listen, rather than some of the dry stuff (like, um, a lot of mine...) it's a bargain :-) You're awesome and you be you, never apologize. We all have stuff to work on and that one thing is minor. For context I had found 6MAE and had been listening to them end to end on a long drive haha. Too much of anything, even a good thing like 6MAE, can be a bit much! I'm about to do my first kickstarter and your book has been immensely helpful.
Yay! That's awesome. I love it. :) Hopefully we'll see you on tomorrow's livestream.
Ooh, nice tips on the trilogy release spacing! I often wonder about good timescales for spacing a series in parts.
Thanks, Martin. There are different ways to do it but a few months apart seems to be a good rhythm. You can also watch books in your genre and see how those trilogies are spaced.